Eight years before Mickey’s Christmas Carol was an Oscar-nominated short cartoon, it was a Disneyland LP and book set called Dickens’ Christmas Carol Presented By The Popular Repertory Company, The Walt Disney Players. Here’s how it went from record player to big screen.
DICKENS’ CHRISTMAS CAROL PRESENTED BY THE WALT DISNEY PLAYERS
Disneyland Storyteller Records STER-3811 (Stereo LP)
Disneyland Storyteller Records (Vista Marketing TV Mail Order) D-3811 (Mono LP incorrectly labeled as Stereo)
Released in 1975. Writers: Alan Young, Alan Dinehart. Music: Buddy Baker. Lyrics: Tom and Frances Adair. Running Time: 36 minutes.
1975 LP Voices: Alan Young (Scrooge McDuck/Ebenezer Scrooge, Mickey Mouse/Bob Cratchit, Morty Mouse/Tiny Tim, Merlin/Christmas Past); Janet Waldo (Minnie Mouse/Mrs. Cratchit, Daisy Duck/Isabel Fezziwig, Snow White Witch/Christmas Future); Clarence Nash (Donald Duck/Nephew Fred); Hal Smith (Goofy/Marley); Walker Edmiston (Willie the Giant/Christmas Present); Alan Dinehart (Ratty & Mole/Fundraisers, Additional Voices).
1975 LP Songs: “Money,” “This is the Way Christmas Ought to Be,” “Being Tight is Not All Right,” “Under the Mistletoe,” “We Have Love,” “What a Glorious Christmas Morning,” “They Won’t Know Me/“What a Glorious Christmas Morning (Reprise),” “That’s What Christmas Ought to Be (Reprise),” “What a Glorious Christmas Morning (Finale).”
Actor, writer and ought-to-be-an-official-Disney-Legend Alan Young was surprised one day in the early ‘70s by a phone call from his college chum Gary Krisel, who was just promoted to supervisor of product development at Disneyland-Vista Records. There was a series of illustrations lying around that he wanted to make into a record album.
The art depicted Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol with Mickey and his friends in the classic character roles. A member of the Dickens society in his native Canada, Young was a natural for the job of fashioning a script from the concept. He partnered with Alan Dinehart; a TV writer and voice director whose many projects included iconic Hanna-Barbera cartoons.
For this reason, the finished record album is like no other Disney record ever produced, cast with actors that rarely, if ever, did voice work for Disney projects. Veteran actor Walker Edmiston at the time was busy doing voices for Sid and Marty Krofft shows like H.R. Pufnstuf and Sigmund and the Sea Monsters. Hal Smith did countless H-B voice roles as well as playing Otis on The Andy Griffith Show.
And this was the only Disney record to feature the lovely Janet Waldo, with the possible exception of educational materials. For Walt Disney Imagineering, Waldo voiced the Grandmother and angry neighbor in the 1993 version of Walt Disney’s Carousel of Progress, and she voiced Maleficent in a Disney presentation at the Hollywood Bowl.
Disney Legend Buddy Baker, whose magnificent music swirls through many a Disney attraction, wrote the music for the Christmas Carol album. Tom Adair, a prolific comedy writer and lyricist, including material for Sleeping Beauty, the Pioneer Hall Hoop-Dee-Doo Revue and the unproduced Rainbow Road to Oz, wrote the Carol lyrics with his wife, Frances.
Young stayed fairly close to the narrative and peppered it with amusing one-liners. Always a humble and generous soul, Young shared writing credit with Dinehart because of one particular line from Willie the Giant as Christmas Present: “Take hold of my robe. Duh, not back there, unless you want to fly tourist.”
Little did Alan Young know after this album was completed and released that it would lead—in a roundabout way—to a role he would play for over 35 years.
GIVE A LITTLE LISTEN
“Graveyard Scene with Scrooge and the Witch”
The original album cast the Snow White hag as the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. Janet Waldo, who loved to stretch as a voice actor, brings the same menace as when she voiced Maleficent for the Hollywood Bowl.
WALT DISNEY PRODUCTIONS’ MICKEY’S CHRISTMAS CAROL
Disneyland Storyteller Records (Radio Shack Exclusive) 3825 (Stereo LP or Cassette)
Disney Picture Disc 3109 (Stereo LP)
Disneyland 7” Book & Record LLP-386 or Cassette (Mono)
Released in 1983. Writers: Alan Young, Alan Dinehart. Music: Buddy Baker, Irwin Kostal. Lyrics: Tom and Frances Adair, Fredrick Searles. Running Times: 34 minutes (12” LP), 15 minutes (7” 33 rpm Read-Along LP).
1983 LP Voices: Alan Young (Scrooge McDuck/Ebenezer Scrooge, Mickey Mouse/Bob Cratchit, Morty Mouse/Tiny Tim); Janet Waldo (Minnie Mouse/Mrs. Cratchit, Daisy Duck/Isabel Fezziwig); Clarence Nash (Donald Duck/Nephew Fred); Hal Smith (Ratty/Fundraiser, Goofy/Marley); Eddie Carroll (Jiminy Cricket/Christmas Past); Walker Edmiston (Willie the Giant/Christmas Present); Will Ryan (Mole/Fundraiser, Pete/Christmas Future); Alan Dinehart (Additional Voices).
1983 LP Songs: “O What a Merry Christmas Day,” “Money,” “This is the Way Christmas Ought to Be,” “Being Tight is Not All Right,” “Under the Mistletoe,” “We Have Love,” “What a Glorious Christmas Morning,” “This is the Way Christmas Ought to Be (Reprise),” “What a Glorious Christmas Morning (Finale).”
Read-Along 7” LP Songs: “O What a Merry Christmas Day,” “Money.”
When Burny Mattinson was assigned to direct the first Mickey Mouse featurette since 1953’s The Simple Things, it was an adaptation of A Christmas Carol that existed as a Disneyland Record. Neither the album jacket nor the record label listed any script or voice credits, so no one knew, or checked on, who was responsible for the original recording.
An actor friend of Alan Young’s approached him for advice on how to do a Scottish burr. Young, who had to work to lose his natural burr when he was a young actor, was happy to help. But when he saw the script, he realized he had written it himself, years earlier. When Young decided to audition for the Scrooge McDuck role as well, a Disney staffer told him that they had considered him for the part but didn’t think he would be interested.
Actually, Alan Young was the third actor to voice Scrooge McDuck. The first was Dal McKennon for the 1960 Disneyland LP, Donald Duck and His Friends. Bill Thompson voiced him in the 1967 film, Scrooge McDuck and Money. Young made his Scrooge McDuck debut with the 1975 Christmas Carol album, played him again in the 1983 film, then solidified the role with the hit TV series Duck Tales in 1987. Ever since, Young has voiced Uncle Scrooge in everything from Disney Parks live shows to subsequent Walt Disney Records releases.
The release of Mickey’s Christmas Carol (on a double-bill with a reissue of The Rescuers) prompted a reissue of the earlier recording. Through some clever editing, the scenes with Ratty and Mole, Christmas Past and Christmas Future were replaced with the film sound track excerpts. Virtually the entire album remained unchanged story-wise, but most of the songs were shortened and one was cut completely.
I remember going to see Mickey’s Christmas Carol with anticipation that the Baker/Adair songs were going to be part of the cartoon. Instead, a very nice new song opened the film: “O What a Merry Christmas Day” by arranger/conductor Irwin Kostal and Fredrick Searles. All the other songs were not to be heard. Mickey’s Christmas Carol is, after all, a 26-minute film and not a musical TV special or feature. And delightful as the original album songs are, they don’t quite stack up to the indelible Bob Merrill/Jule Styne songs for 1962’s Mr. Magoo’s Christmas Carol.
Four different Disneyland products were released to tie in with the film: a picture disc (front and back below), a 7” read-along book and record or cassette, and a standard vinyl LP with a revised version of the book (including the script) that was exclusively sold at Radio Shack stores.
None of these editions were released on CD (except for scattered songs on various Christmas compilations), but the 1983 Storyteller is available for download on iTunes. Mickey’s Christmas Carol, the film, has just been released for the first time on Blu-ray.
GIVE A LITTLE LISTEN
“Graveyard Scene with Scrooge and Pete”
Notice how little of Alan Young’s script has changed, even though it’s now Pete as the ghost, played by the multi-talented Will Ryan. This is one of the sections from the sound track of the film that was incorporated into the revised 1983 records.
The album that I had in the mid-70’s had the same cover artwork as the very first item pictured above, and on the inside it had the pictures with the Disney characters depicting the Dickens characters–but the album itself was narrated and sung by Bill Lee, and the songs were all sung by either Lee as a solo, or by a chorus, or by Lee with the chorus as backup. I was very disappointed that there were no character voices on this album–save for a half-hearted attempt by Lee to imitate Merlin’s voice (the ghost of Christmas past). The narrative tried really hard to soft-pedal the ghosts in the story–“parts of this story are really scary, but it all turns out all right in the end”. Aside from some of the songs, which were OK, the album was a huge let-down, after seeing the concept as presented on the cover.
How come the Lee version never gets any mention? And when did they make the decision to re-do the album (as it rightfully should have been done) with the character voices in place?
The way I figure it, the Lee version must have been the first “draft” of the album to be released, and the ones with the characters must have come afterward. Any insights?
From the late ’60s to the mid ’70s, budgets were lower on most Disneyland Records, so you would have heard more narration and dialogue albums with sparse music. Most of the music that did appear on them was recorded at Abbey Road Studios in London.. By the ’70s, the music returned to LA but the tracks were fewer per album (nevertheless some terrific records still were done).
The Bill Lee album you have, not surprisingly, did not sell well (though Bill Lee is a giant among Hollywood studio singers), so when Gary Krisel came to the company, he wanted to take the same artwork (which also appeared in a hardcover book called (Disney’s Christmas Treasury) and do the album correctly. That’s when he called Alan Young and the rest is hysterical.
I should also mention that the great Jymn Magon was hired to take Krisel’s role at Supervisor of Product Development as Krisel became the head of the record company, so Magon produced the reissue products that meticulously combined the Young productions with the 1983 film sound track. When Walt Disney TV Animation was established the next year, Krisel brought Magon over and lots of award-winning hit shows ensued.
Alan Young mentioned in an interview that the only reason Disney remade the album in first place was because they had spent a ton of money on the album covers and sleeves and had a lot of them left when the Bill Lee version didn’t sell well. You can read the interview here:
Be advised: Disney’s crack “restoration” team turned up the DVNR to radioactive levels on the new Blu Ray, just like they did on The Sword in the Stone. BluRay.com is screaming about it here:
From that link, here’s a screenshot of the menu, showing “before”:
And from the movie itself, showing “after”:
Hello? Disney? Anybody minding the store?
It’s truly sad what they did to those outlines out of concern for the original xerox look they were done in.
There is a difference between the original and the DNR Blu-ray.
I can’t speak as either a technology specialist. As you can see by “Animation Spin,” the subject I specialize in is records, as Jerry himself attests. That’s why this article is about the recordings. Mentioning the Blu-ray is a courtesy to those who want to know.
All I can do is guess at the decision to handle the films with DNR — speaking unofficially only as home viewer with a family who also looked at the difference.. After seeing a side-by-side comparison, what becomes apparent is that the DNR process smooths out the xerox lines and lessens the appearance of cel dust. Watch the darker scenes in “The Hobbit,” “Charlotte’s Web” or even early “Scooby-Doo” and you’ll see the dust particles flying around, little mites that either the air guns missed or were ignored for budget and time reasons. This dust is a picture flaw, too. With with the advent of the computer-color CAPS system years later, three were no cels and no dust to worry about anymore.
To the average family of today, watching these xerox era films with the dust might make kids and grown ups think there’s something wrong with the discs. One solution to the dust is to painstakingly hand correct every frame. DNR can do it faster but the downside is that you lose definition in not only the xerox lines, but other drawing and background lines. Details go away that should have stayed. it’s not a perfect solution, especially to experts in these matters.
But it’s a tough call, because you’ve got to figure in today’s economy and the precarious sales of DVDs and Blu-rays. Can a film, especially one that’s not a “classic” in the Snow White sense, justify in the possibly unrecoverable expense of the more elaborate and expensive restoration process? Perhaps one day a better technology will be found — after all, those of us who winced at every scratch, pop and bump on our vinyl records could never dream that digital version would have no surface noise– though again, some CD’s don’t always sound as good as the vinyl ones.
So you’re right, as a dedicated Disney enthusiast, that the films ought to be as true to the Disney originals as possible. But despite the loss of detail, the new Blu-ray images are very bright and colorful, looking more like current home video produce. It is conceivable that some Blu-ray buyers might even look at the cel dust and say, “Why is it snowing?” and complain for a refund or exchange.
According to Jim Korkis, Walt Disney didn’t care for the xerox lines and did not consider “101 Dalmatians” one of his faves.
No one is wrong in this situation, but to untrained eyes and those not well Disney versed of the mainstream, they look nice. That doesn’t mean these folks are right either. They don’t know what they’re missing and I cannot speak for them about whether it matters or not. They just like the movies and they look nice.
In the words of Ed Grimely, “It’s difficult to say.”
This does not in any way make your claims any less valid. But it’s likely that all of these films will be reissued again and maybe new technologies, along with your impassioned devotion to the integrity of the artists’ vision, will be kept in mind in a not-too-distant day.
I strenuously, violently disagree with your assessment. There is a sizable happy medium between leaving the film in a totally unrestored condition, and completely destroying it with excessive, ineptly applied Photoshop filters.
There actually is a bit of a parallel in the Disney record catalog. In the 1950s, reverb became all the rage in audio engineering, and EVERYTHING was liberally doused in it. The early Disney soundtrack albums – WDL-4000 series included – were mastered during this period, and they show the ugly effects of this trend. The Disney sound engineers pumped the soundtracks through a cavernous echo chamber, totally blurring the sound, and making Snow White seem like she was whistling while she worked from the other side of Grand Central Station.
Why was this a problem? Because for years, those were Disneyland Records’ only source masters, and it wasn’t until Randy Thornton was able to access the film soundtrack elements again in the 1990s that the damage was finally undone.
The reverb was a marketing choice, not an audio engineering one. To an unsophisticated listener in 1957, lots of reverb = high fidelity. But unsophisticated listeners and marketing weenies have no business making audio engineering choices.
By the same token, NO professional film or video person would have ever done THAT to Mickey’s Christmas Carol, The Sword in the Stone, or any other animated film, unless forced to by a particularly clueless MBA. I challenge you to find any animation-related Blu Ray from any other major studio that has anywhere near that much deliberately inflicted damage to the image. Blu Rays with FAR less DVNR (The Fleischer Popeye sets, Cinderella) have come in for heavy criticism on the home video review sites for excessive degradation of the image.
To say that “no one is wrong in this situation” is to literally draw a false parity between competence and incompetence. This is not an elementary school classroom where everyone gets an award for participating. This is an allegedly professional home entertainment company, and there are standards. Disney has been repeatedly falling short of them lately, and in the case of this Blu Ray (and the Sword in the Stone), it is to a STUNNING extent.
I think at least mentioning that in these comments is entirely appropriate, since it will save a lot of people the hassle of returning the darn things. I trust if Disney were to start releasing CD reissues that have been “improved” with incompetent EQ choices, wavery speed, and chunks of the songs missing, you would want to say something.
FYI, Alan Young most recently played Scrooge in this year’s Ducktales: Remastered video game. The rest of the surviving DuckTales cast returns, too.
Yeah, that was disappointing news about the Mickey’s Christmas Carol Blu-Ray. I’ll be sticking with the DVD (it was on one of the Walt Disney Treasures Mickey Mouse DVD sets).
“Mickey’s Christmas Carol” was released on a DVD called “Classic Cartoon Favorites, Colume 9: Classic Holiday Stories.” Also on the DVD is “The Small One” and “Pluto’s Christmas Tree.” The new Blu-ray and DVD both include “Mickey’s Christmas Carol” with “Pluto’s Christmas Tree,” The Hockey Champ,” The Art of Skiing,” “Corn Chips” and one of those cool new Mickey shorts: “Yodelberg.’ There’s also digital copy.
Alan Young was also the toymaker in “Great Mouse Detective.” Was he already working on that when he tried out for Uncle Scrooge, or did he get cast because “Carol” put him on Disney’s radar? I don’t remember him doing any other Disney projects prior.
Young was in Disney’s “Cat From Outer Space” in 1978. He was doing a lot of voice work as well as on-camera acting at the time.
Jymn Magon can verify it, but it’s likely that Young’s work in “Christmas Carol” brought him visibility for “Dectective.” And he had to be a shoo-in to play Scrooge on “Duck Tales,” as an authentic Scottish burr is very difficult to simulate (just ask Craig Ferguson) and Young’s was real.
Gotta clarify things. As I stated my comments, I did not disagree with you, but simply want to explore the reasoning — however flawed you might find it — behind the nature of the reissued films.
“There is a sizable happy medium between leaving the film in a totally unrestored condition, and completely destroying it with excessive, ineptly applied Photoshop filters.”
I do not claim to be an expert at video technology. My weekly column is mainly about records, tapes and CDs. If you have information about how you can achieve this happy medium of restoration, that’s great. Such information would be very constructive — and maybe someone involved with these reissues might read it and take steps to improve it. That’s why comments are so important, whether you agree with them or not.
“There actually is a bit of a parallel in the Disney record catalog. In the 1950s, reverb became all the rage in audio engineering, and EVERYTHING was liberally doused in it.”
Sound track albums are something I do have a great deal of knowledge about. While many albums were “doused,” not all of them were. Hundreds were not. As to the Disney releases, it varies with the title. Yes, Snow White was over-echoed. Reverb was popular with all the record labels — and not only because of marketing decisions, as Phil Spector’s “Wall of Sound” was hailed.
Randy is a friend of mine, and I know that he did a lot of repair to many of the sound tracks, particularly “The Happiest Millionaire,” which had a reverb so severe that Richard Sherman was grateful to Randy for fixing it. The reverb on “The Sound of Music” 1965 sound track album was a likely the reason for so much echo in the mid-60s, as it was one of the best selling albums of the day. “Chitty Chitty Bang Bang” still has heavy reverb, while “Oliver!” no longer does. Either there are no available masters for “Chitty,” or the complete restoration is not economically feasible — the same reasoning behind why the DNR might have been used on the Disney films. But why withhold “Chitty” because it has an echo? Better to keep a wonderful album like that in circulation.
I do have to object to the blanket statement about every Disneyland/Vista record that came before, as it does not do justice to the tremendous artistry and major creative foundation that Tutti Camarata and the other pioneering Disney Record people contributed — something that Randy and other record specialists readily enthusiastically acknowledge.
“The reverb was a marketing choice, not an audio engineering one.”
Nuh-uh. Not always. See above comments.
“By the same token, NO professional film or video person would have ever done THAT to Mickey’s Christmas Carol, The Sword in the Stone, or any other animated film, unless forced to by a particularly clueless MBA.”
I was not in the room when these decisions were made, so I cannot presume to say they happened. It seems unfair to label anyone as unprofessional or incompetent without knowing the truth. Please see my earlier comments about the precarious state of the DVD and Blu-ray industry, which are a reality and not conjecture.
“To say that ‘no one is wrong in this situation’ is to literally draw a false parity between competence and incompetence. This is not an elementary school classroom where everyone gets an award for participating.”
To say no one is wrong in this situation is to thoughtfully consider the situation, not showing disrespect to the passionate feelings of those who object to the Blu-ray processes as well as those who made the choice to use them. To assign incompetence not only casts aspersions on many people who might be dedicated professionals, and I don’t know them so I can’t say. None of that can be assumed unless one was in the engineering room and meeting rooms and witnessed the activities and decision. As to Elementary School awards, I still have my fourth grade blue ribbon for winning the Egg Tossing Contest. It is more of a treasure to me than a fine diamond.
“This is an allegedly professional home entertainment company, and there are standards. Disney has been repeatedly falling short of them lately, and in the case of this Blu Ray (and the Sword in the Stone), it is to a STUNNING extent.”
Standards and professionalism are based on a number of factors. In my comments I tried to consider the motivations behind the decisions to reissue the films this way without judging anyone, especially since I was not there and don’t know the people involved. That’s never the easiest road to travel. Perhaps if families and Disney enthusiasts were polled, we’d know how many of them feel on a grander scale.
“I think at least mentioning that in these comments is entirely appropriate, since it will save a lot of people the hassle of returning the darn things.”
It sure would be interesting to see what the return rate was for these films. Can’t comment on what I don’t know. Your comments are very helpful because they caution those who may be wary of DNR issues to approach such Blu-rays with caution. For that, I thank you.
“I trust if Disney were to start releasing CD reissues that have been ‘improved’ with incompetent EQ choices, wavery speed, and chunks of the songs missing, you would want to say something.”
Yes, I would. And I have in other reviews. Not all CD releases sound as good as previous ones, nor always better than good as vinyl albums (I think I said this in my comments earlier).
Recordings are what I know best and what this story was about — the records that spawned the film. In one sentence, I mentioned that the film was just issued on Blu-ray just so people know.
Thank you for adding your caveat about the processes and how they might affect some folks’ enjoyment of these classics. If you don’t raise your objections, issues may never be solved. Please don’t think I am dismissing them in any way. It’s important for people who feel strongly about Disney and what it means to them to express their views and I appreciate your doing that.
“I do have to object to the blanket statement about every Disneyland/Vista record that came before”
Don’t let me be misunderstood! i was only referring to the soundtrack releases of the mid/late 1950s, actually. When it came to “refurbishing” old recordings for LP release during that period, it really was the universal practice – at most labels, not just Disneyland.
That being said, I heartily agree with both Randy and Richard on “The Happiest Millionaire”. The original was a *dreadful* mixing job. (Just about as bad as the video mastering on this Blu Ray!) Again, you don’t have to know the history of the original mix to evaluate its quality (or lack thereof). There’s a range of reasonable artistic choices, and then there’s “what the heck were they thinking?”
“The Sound of Music” had quite a bit of reverb, but it was *nothing* like the soupy mess on “The Happiest Millionaire” album. And on that one, you have someone who presumably *was* involved – Richard Sherman – who was delighted that it was “fixed”, implying that it was broke! (He’s right. It was.) I’ve done some audio and video engineering – not enough to get a gig at Disney perhaps, but enough to be somewhat dangerous – and can assure you that the original mix of “The Happiest Millionaire” soundtrack LP can *only* be described as inept. There is absolutely no excuse for it. Again, there are standards.
I don’t know how the Blu Ray ended up looking the way it does (or why “The Happiest Millionaire” soundtrack LP sounded the way it did). Poor engineering? Executive meddling? But I don’t need to know the responsible parties or their motivations. I can evaluate the finished product on its own merits, or absence of same. And I can state with confidence that the damage was done deliberately. Besides the evidence of the menu footage, there are earlier DVD releases that contain “Mickey’s Christmas Carol” in substantially better quality than this Blu Ray – despite the lower resolution. Caveat emptor!
I was shocked by how bad those screenshots looked from the new BluRay of Mickey’s Christmas Carol. It really is a mess and I find it incredibly frustrating that there may be modern viewers that think that’s how it should look. It’s that kind of reasoning that’s prevented a release of Snow White with true 1937 colours.
Anyway, to get back on topic, this article was a really interesting read. I’m really glad that Alan Young came to play the part of Scrooge. Of the modern voices for Disney characters, he stands out as one of the best for me. it’s his voice I imagine whenever I read Carl Barks Scrooge stories.
One thing I’d like to see released one day is the soundtrack from the 1983 featurette. I bet a lot of disney fans would like to have the song ‘O What a Merry Christmas Day’ (which is very pleasant to listen to despite some mushy lyrics), but what I especially like is the music used for the Fezzywig party scene. It’s a really lovely, Christmassy bit of music, but I’ve never heard it played anywhere outside of the film itself and I’d love to hear it without characters talking over it.
Thanks for the kind words, Adam. This column is a joy for me because I just love these records so much. Even more than Jammie Dodgers.
Alan Young is a super talent, and extremely modest about it. Wish he’d be made an official Disney Legend!
I create “brain soundtracks” for my comics, too! When I read Archie, it’s Dal McKennon and the Filmation cast, though I do have to tone down Jane Webb’s Veronica in my head (she actually did that herself in the NBC Archie shows).
“O What A Merry Christmas Day” is on the storyteller that is on iTunes. The song does not seem to be available by itself, but it was on the Time Life Disney Christmas Collection CD set (disc 2). There really should be a sound track of Irwin Kostal’s 1983, though, perhaps with the score from “Small One.”
“I create “brain soundtracks” for my comics, too! When I read Archie, it’s Dal McKennon and the Filmation cast, though I do have to tone down Jane Webb’s Veronica in my head (she actually did that herself in the NBC Archie shows).”
There are times when I get Dal and Howie in my head as Archie and Jughead too, it’s just that contagious somehow. Oh yes, there are those that will disagree with me over that anyway, but it’s just the way it is I guess.